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Oct 01, 2006


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Denis Hancock

Posts with no comments will not deter me from seeing this through to the end.

I don't know Mike -- this almost sounds like a threat...

Michael Kruse

This series will prevail. The Emperor has foreseen it. You do not yet know the power of the Kronicle side.

Denis Hancock

Resistance is futile. You will be absorbed.

Or as Yoda would say, "irrelevant the Force is"

Michael Kruse

Ah, I can see this series is in trouble already and it hasn't even started.


thanks for doing this review. I have the book and have read parts but your reviews should prove helpful.

Michael Kruse

Great Manwe. I will obviously just be skimming over the top of these chapters. I hope others will feel free to jump in highlight things that either spoke to them or raised questions. Nice to have you along.

Ted Gossard

Well, after reading this, maybe this is one of those books I'm going to have to afford....

Michael Kruse

I can tell you this much, I have around forty books in my library related to the various aspects of this topic. This book and the one by Stan Grenz on this topic a few years ago are the two I go refer back to more than any of the others by far.

Rev. Thomas Clark

Found the book Discovering Book Equality interesting and challenging.

However, I think that Richard Hove has fully answered the issue regarding the classic feminist passage in Galatians 3:28 in his book EQUALITY IN CHRIST? Galatian 3:28 and the Gender Dispute.

Dr. Wayne Grudem and Dr. John Piper have written the current classic in the area of gender issues.

Dr. Walter L. Liefeld was my professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for the Courses Ephesians, Colossians & Philemon.

I have been studying this evangelical feminism issue since approximately 1979. Dallas Theological Seminary's Journel, Biblio Theca Sacra, came out with a series of articles on Evangelical Feminism at that time.

Also, recent biology and other scientific studies convincingly demonstrate a very distinct difference between genders.

Always the important question is: what is meant by "equality"? Obviously, it does not mean "same".

Lord willing I plan to re-read the book Discovering Book Equality when I have more time.

I had been a public social worker for 32 years until my retirement 4 years ago. During the period of my employment I pastored an intercity church.

During the time of my employment I held loosely to the Traditional view, but when I retired I spent extensive amounts of time researching this matter.

Personally, I saw the disasterous consequences of feminism in the social work field which has been dominated by women.

Also, I have taken note of churches that have female Pastors and find that they generally have a declining membership and effeminate form of Christianity. Generally they have membership mostly composed women and a few men.

Also, I am personally aware of a number of sound biblical churches that have had church splits because of evangelical feminist demands that they change their viewpoint.

Do women have a major place in ministry? Yes. But not primarily as Pastors. However, I would not have any objection to a woman delivering a message or a series of messages. The Elders and primary leadership should be male (obviously trained and mature). There, also, would be exceptions when there is no qualified male available.

May God bless your life and work of ministry.

In Christ,

Rev. Thomas L. Clark - Phil. 3:14

Michael Kruse

Thomas, I am glad you have stopped by. I do hope you will be able to get a copy of the book and read it. I am only trying to hit the high points in each essay. Should you have questions about the essay and want to know how a non-hierarchical complimentarian like me processes this stuff I will be happy to engage.

I too have been studying these issues since the late 1970s. I have read more than 30 books and countless journal articles on the topic including many by Grudem and those who share his positions. I use this book because I think it offers a wonderful concise (even at 500 pages) overview of non-hierarchical complimentarian position.

Dr. Wayne Grudem and Dr. John Piper have written the current classic in the area of gender issues.

I assume you are referring to "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood." I don't share your high esteem for this book or the others they have written. In fact, the teaching of the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father is heresy and that is one of the things I found most deeply disturbing their teaching and their movement.

Also, recent biology and other scientific studies convincingly demonstrate a very distinct difference between genders.

Always the important question is: what is meant by "equality"? Obviously, it does not mean "same"."

"...because of evangelical feminist demands that they change their viewpoint.

Thomas, I would love for you to consider the non-hierarchical complimentarian position but I have doubts you will be able to because you have a priori decided you know what motivates non-hierarchical complimentarianism: Feminism.

There is no doubt that there has been a very strong influence of feminism that is based in secular humanism. Some in the church use higher critical methods to dismiss parts or all of Scripture as authoritative on our lives. These folks have tried to erase all distinctions between men and women. I don't know if you are willing to hear this but this is not non-hierarchical complimentarianism. Non-hierarchical complimentarianism has a history that dates to waaay before the 1960s. It is based on sound Evagelcial hermeneutics and exegesis, not secular feminism.

Further, is it not possible to come to some right conclusions for the wrong reasons? Secular humanists oppose slavery both here and abroad. Does that mean we should support slavery in places like Sudan because secular humanists came to their conclusions through secular humanism?

Non-hierarchical complimentarianism has never taught that there are not differences between the sexes. That is a strawman argument. What it teaches is that there is no hieracrhcial ordering of the sexes. Male and Female were made in the image of God to be co-regents over creation under God. If women are eternally subordinate to men by design, they are not truly co-regent. That is, Men exercise dominion under God while women exercise dominion under men who are under God. The "equality" is an equality of status as co-regents, not a uniformity in being.

So again, I welcome you participation, should you be so inclined to join in. But if you insist on looking through a lens that interprets everything as an outworking of secular feminism, then I have a sense we will just be poking each other in the eye and I have better things to do.

michael jensen

I would just urge any readers of Dr Giles to check his use of quotations: he is a master of the chopped up quote, the half paragraph and the unfinished thought. His first book is full of this unscholarly practice.

Michael Kruse

Michael, I have read to of Giles books and fact checked several of his citations. To the contrary, I have found Giles very reliable. It is Grudem who continually lifts passages out of context, equates terms like "order" with hierarchy, and frequently misrepresents the historic teachings of the Church. While I doubt anyone is perfect in citations and quotations, I have high praise for Giles sholarship.

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